Music more defined.

[shadow]

Im sure everyne here listens to the Contemporary Christian Music... but how do you feel about the way it's being used in the churches today?

Is it ok to have drums in church?

What is, biblically, the purpose of music?
Would you say it is meant to be a physical thing?
Should it make you want to dance, and jump around?

well, just want your thoughts

[Amry]

I went to a retreat this week - and the music was a huge part of it. The bass was up so loud you couldn't hear yourself think, and you were encouraged to get up and dance and sing and shout. But sometimes, they would have everyone calm down, sit down, and then play or sing a quiet song during the meditation.

Music can have an incredible effect on the human body. I've heard that when you sing, you pray twice.

Drums in church... I think they're fine. A drum can be very stimulating. Besides, unless your band has a really great sense of rhythm, everybody's going to mess up.

Biblically music is really important. Look at the Book of Psalms - isn't it all songs?

Yeah, that's all my thoughts for now. Cool topic.

[shadow]

But, Biblically... what is the *purpose* of music? Sure theyre is LOTS of music in the Bible... but... why?

[Amry]

That's a very anthropological question. Why does any culture worship with music? I suppose the purpose is to worship... but often setting a tune and poetry to something makes it even more meaningful and beautiful.

[Alegna]

Wow.. a controversial topic.. this is rarely seen on this site.. *CRacKs knuckles in preparation*

Before i say anything, i just have to say that as long as this remains a debate and stays FAR away from an arguement, its fine... but if this COMES close to arguementative i think we'll have to stop for the simple reason that is stated in the bible- "..Note those that cause divisions and offenses in the church and avoid them." its just its important not to dwell on petty issues when there are so many more important issues to think about.. ya know? so anyway now that thats said..

I,personally, think music is an important aspect of life. I dont think its something man created, perhaps he has distorted it a lil... but thats not the point, God created music, and He created talents and gifts to be able to create music, and He created the desire for music. I also think music is deeper than just instruments, i dunno about you guys, but in my case, music affects me. It can affect me emotionally and spiritually. In some cases, music is like a 'sermon', it can teach, and God can use it in BIG ways. What im trying to say is, music is important, and God created man so intricately and so beautifully, that each one of us can interpret and express themselves in different ways through music.

over the past few years, there has been a 'anti- Contemporary Christian Music' movement. I dont agree with it. and its not even because of WHAT they say, its the way they say it, and their motive behind it. They are extremely judgemental, and very defensive. In fact, they have gone so against CCM that they have come close to creating a cult. IT doesnt border on legalism, it is legalism. They come across as 'holier-than-thou'.. and this in itslef is questionable. I understand, that they dont want people to have only an 'emotional response', but the simple act of worshipping an AMAZING, ALL-POWERFUL, LOVING FATHER who gave up His SON, so that we can live, when considered, should-with good reason- cause emotion. Heres an example. Imagine a scene with a son and father. They are being attacked by terrorists, and one of the terrorists aim a gun at the son. the father instinctively jumps in front of the son and takes the bullet for his son and dies. If that child had the chance to thank his father for that, i HIGHLY doubt, the son would look with an expressionless face toward his dad, and say "Hey thanks dad" while he gives his dad a side on hug. I dont know about anyone else, but i would break down and there would a WHOLE LOTTA EMOTION RIGHT THERE. When we worship God, we are thanking Him and praising Him, for the greatest gift of all.
I think emotion is an important part of worship, although i do understand where they are coming from, i dont completely agree.

ok i know it seems i have comepletely side tracked from the real issue of drums and all that, i just wanted to show you guys where i was coming from before i got to that.

Now,*takes a deep breath*, for drums and electric guitar. As with everything in life, there are boundries, but i dont think that having drums in music is 'evil' or even slightly wrong. God said "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord". I dont think He meant scream and shout at the top of your lungs any hoo-ha that comes into your mind. I also dont think that we can decide what type of music God prefers. I dont think God looks at a traditonal conservative church and nods his head and says "yes, thats the way its done, these poor other fools, theyve got it all wrong" and then looks at the contemporary churches and shakes His head at them. God looks into the hearts of every man, woman and child, and sees whether their heart is right. whether they are simply there for a good beat or a good guitar riff. He looks to see whether, they are truely worshipping Him. Lyrics are an integral part of worship. But i dont think that if a song doesnt have the actual written name 'Jesus' or 'God' in it it should be disregarded. People say 'Well you never know who you could be singing about!' Who gave us the right to judge that songwriters heart on whether or not he/she was playing for God or some girl/guy. beside that, if you are signing to God, thats what counts.

There is alot more i wanted to say, but i cant right now, im sorry if i babbled, I jsut wanted to say one more thing, that i have said before to friends. Is that God is a great God, and if we could fully understand everything about Him, His ways, His thoughts, and we wouldnt have to consider or think about anything, basically if we could put God in a box, and say "Well, now that thats sorted out".. He wouldnt be God. SO we will never understand everything about Him, and we can debate till our faces are blue.. just when we think we've got it nailed, just when we think "NOW I UNDERSTAND"... God humbles us(not always immediately) and shows us, that in fact we were WAY OFF. all of this stuff that i said, could be a whole lot of 'mumbo-jumbo', but the first step to knowing more, is knowing that, in fact, we know nothing.
Dont get too arrogant about somthing, thinking in your mind that you could never be wrong, because as we all know, it aint the greatest feeling when we realize we made a huge fuss about being right, and maybe even got angry about it, when all along we were wrong. Gives that saying 'Never say never' a slightly different meaning dont it?

Anyway i just wanna say that if i came across as slightly arguementative, let me know, i can get a bit worked up about these kind of issues-feel free to tell me if i offended you. That was not my intention. Because something that is highly ironic, is that i go to quite a conservative church, and i dont sit there with resentment against them because of some little unimportant issue that we dont completely agree on. We all have one commoness, and that is our belief and love for a Holy God. We are family, and those issues are not more important than remembering to love God and them unconditionally first and foremost.

A highly respectable, and amazing man, who i admire, and a person who has impacted my life in ways he could not even begin to fathom(along with his whole family)... once said something that has stuck with me for a loooong time. He said there are three rules for living a godly life... 1. Love God wholeheartedly. 2.Love your neighbour as yourself. and 3. If you do these two things, do whatever you want. He didnt mean it in a blasphemous way. He was simply saying, that as long as you truely love God, and others, following and obeying him would be a natural outflow of that love. Dont dwell on petty things, remember whats important.

Ok i have babbled for WAY too long.. thats all for now

[shadow]

Well... that was a lot of information Alegna... and it took a long time to read, so if i had been inclined to get mad because it was argumentetive... it would have already run off :-P
but it was fine
my one problem with both of your two statements... is that your backing up your statement with what you think... NOT what the Bible says
obviously David was extremely emotional
and i find that there is a great tendency towards Ephesusism (like it? its means to act liek the church of Ephesus)
but you cannot debate all that clearly without adding the bible
all things fall back onto the Bible always
obviously the bible does not define the type of music one should allow
but it does say that we shoudl make a joyful noise unto the lord
and it also gives examples of very whole hearted worship... therefore there is nothing worng with it
and really Amry... not to sound mean or arrogant... im really not trying to
but i dont give the slightest care what ANY culture says about music
i want to know what the Bible says
and therefore it is NOT anthropological (or anthropocentric)
it is Theocentric, because the Bible is the very word of God... nothing less.
But I conclude with... please at least be based on the Bible... otherwise you have no right... because as far as im concerned... the Bible is the only right.

[Alegna]

yeah, the reason i didnt back some of what i said up with scripture is cause alot ofwhat i said was based on experience, and that is also why i said at the end how i could be completely wrong this was just my take on the whole subject.. its not that i have just disregarded what the bible says.. not AT ALL... but if i find scripture in the bible that i find applicable ill post it

[shadow]

:-P
alrighty then....

but Alegna i have a major problem... ....You're not a male!

[Alegna]

Arent you just a sucker for controversial issues...

-this one of them challenges?-

[Nick]

Is it ok to have drums in church?

What is, biblically, the purpose of music?

Would you say it is meant to be a physical thing?

Should it make you want to dance, and jump around?

My Flat-out answers:

Is it ok to have drums in church? Yes
What is, biblically, the purpose of music? To Worship and Glorify God.
Would you say it is meant to be a physical thing? No, not meant specifically to be physical but I think it can become physical sometimes. (David danced for the Lord)
Should it make you want to dance, and jump around? Some songs can, some do not. I don't think that all worship songs should make you want to dance, but I think that some can.

Those are my flat out answers.

Concerning Drums: I think that drums can be used in churches. A question you could ask yourself is, "Why are drums played in church?", and I think that the answer to that is enriching the sound and hopefully making a better sound to the worship which we are giving to God. I think that many times the church should be about 250 strong though, because if you use drums in an audience smaller than that many times the drum drowns out the people, and then you can't really hear the words and how is that enriching the sound of the worship? It isn't really doing it's job well.

A Thought: Why should the music we listen to in the church building be different to the music we listen to outside of the church building? I mean, the Bible states that 'all things should be done to the glory of God' right? So, if in the church building we are playing/listening/singing to music that is giving glory to God then why should it be any different to the music that we are playing/listening/singing outside of the church building? I think that the main reason for this is because many people who are in the church congregation would be offended with the music that certain people listen to outside of church and I think that this reason is the same for the reason why drums aren't in church buildings. If no one in the congregation objects to having a drum set, then why not have one?

Mini-Thought: Pianos were played in bars in the past and are probably still played in some. Does this mean we shouldn't have pianos in our church buildings?

I do, however, understand that the drum set creates a driving beat which can be controversial to some and so I think that in order to be beyond reproach churches can survive without a drum set.

Mini-Thought: We should not cause other (possibly weaker, in this area) to stumble and if drum-sets do cause other's to stumble then we should obey the Bible and not cause them.

[shadow]

wow
nick
i couldnt agree with you more really
a scary thought

[Amry]

Random fun fact - in the Middle Ages up til around the 1700 - 1800s (I'm pretty sure) the ONLY music allowed in church was organ music. Other music in church was believed to be the work of Satan, and you could get really severely punished for playing church music on any instrument other than an organ. A painting by Bosch depicts Hell, in which a large section of the painting is taken up by musicians being devoured by their own instruments for playing church music on them. ...So what changed our beliefs?

[shadow]

Yes Amry, I'd say that is what people are doing today. But I would also say, while they might be doing the wrong thing, they are doing it for the wrong reason. You bring up the issue of a couple hundred years ago, but just 20 years ago, guitars were thought to be satanic instruments too. People don't like change, (especially old people to be frank) And change CAN be bad, however, not all change is bad. Nonetheless, I will say that more often than not people are using other instruments in the church for their own glory, and while I'm at it, people are preaching in churches for their own glory. As the Bible says, "They have their reward." I don't knwo about you, but I would much rather a heavenly reward than an earthly one.

[Amry]

Of course! But, it is interesting how ideas change and something that's forbidden at one point is perfectly acceptable later. That was the only point I was trying to make. Really. It was just a little fact I found very interesting.